Brdz1: We are glad to welcome everyone to our new podcast episode. What we have been waiting for so long has happened: our guest is a high-stakes Omaha regular and coach of the GreenLine fund, Denis Gragik.
Last year we chose the best Omaha player of all time, although, objectively speaking, I have not played a single hand of Omaha. Therefore, it is interesting to forward all the questions that have accumulated over the past year and a half about Omaha to a real professional. Today we will have such an opportunity.
Gragik: I'll be glad to help.
Avr0ra: That episode turned out pretty good, it was discussed a lot on 2+2. There were some very expensive Omaha games on CoinPoker with Tony G, in which Linus was actively playing. It was Linus who got screwed there and lost a lot. Then, his career began to revive. He sat down in the Hold'em lobby, got into crazy shape, and simply destroyed everyone (and is still destroying).
Linus's result after April 2023As far as I know, before these sessions on CoinPoker, Linus had only trained heads-up Omaha, and was playing 6-max for almost the first time (Editor's note: in a comment to the podcast on YouTube, Shuller_A1t specified that Linus played 6-max in 2019-2020). Do you think such a person could play plus-EV?
Gragik: The game was very tough in that lineup. Good, but Grazvis and omaha4rollz were at the table – two players that would clearly be difficult for a newbie.
Avr0ra: Found a screenshot. It's Tony G, EndBoss123 (I think that's Linus), omaha4rollz, and some Chattahoochee. Do you know who that is?
Gragik: Yes, it's Grazvis. I would put him in the top 1.
At Greenline, I got experience working with players who were moving from NL to PLO. I can tell you that no matter how talented you are, your chances in 6-max will be slim. In heads-up, in wide ranges, maybe he could come up with something, but in 6-max you need to be very well prepared technically.
Avr0ra: So this was a money giveaway from Linus?
Gragik: That's right. He didn't lose a lot of bb/100, but he was definitely the one who omaha4rollz and Grazvis used to make winrates from.
What is More Difficult in Omaha, Heads-Up or 6-Max?
Brdz1: If I don't know how to play Hold'em and sit down heads-up with a professional player, I'll be knocked out very quickly. But in 6-max and 9-max I'll have more chances to sit and play. Do you think the situation is the opposite in Omaha, the chances to hold out are greater in heads-up?
Gragik: If you don't know how to play at all, you won't succeed anywhere or at all, but for a high-level player it will be a bit easier in heads-up. 6-max is more technically difficult, especially in four cards. If you go beyond the ranges preflop, you are immediately punished. I started with a 1-on-1 Hold'em game, so it was easy for me to switch to heads-up Omaha. True, this happened many years ago, but nevertheless...
Avr0ra: For the viewers, I will tell you that Denis plays the most expensive PLO stakes on GGPoker, CoinPoker, and apps. Or do you practice more now?
Gragik: Training takes some time, but I still want to remain more of a player than a coach. I mainly play on GG and ACR. CoinPoker appeared, but I don't play there much.
Avr0ra: Regarding "sitting out at 6-max or 9-max" – this can only be said about amateurs. Remember "Cumicon": I was always surprised how he plays with VPIP 90%, almost all hands, super-wide ranges, and shows such results. In 6-max you can make a gross mistake, go beyond the ranges, and in heads-up it seems like you can't go beyond the ranges, and so, you play the whole deck.
Cullen ‘Cumicon' Connors retired in 2017 Gragik: Yes, one hundred percent. Plus, I've met players more than once who didn't specialize in Omaha, played with a 3-bet of 25-30%, when according to GTO it should be less than 20%. And it worked, because there were no solvers back then, and adjustments against such a 3-bet are not obvious.
Avr0ra: Preflop you can play any way you want?
Gragik: That's the beauty of Omaha.
Avr0ra: And you didn't have time to play with Cumicon?
Gragik: Yes. We shared the lobby at one time. I made my contribution to this graph.
Avr0ra: The result looks simply phenomenal: 25 EV bb/100! And there are a lot of regwars there.
Gragik: Yes, he held a lobby and refused no one – however, few people were willing to play with him. I would also add that this happened in the pre-solver era. It is especially impressive that a person could show such win rates based on intuition, talent, and game understanding.
Brdz1: Isildur in his prime combined heads-up Hold'em with big Omaha games with Galfond, and lost a lot as a result. What do you think the odds are for a talented NL player against the best PLO player: 95 to 5 or 60 to 40?
Gragik: Good question. Galfond was definitely a big favorite. I had a little overlap with Isildur, a couple of sessions maybe. I don't remember the hands anymore, but I remember how emotionally unpleasant it was to feel the non-stop pressure. Dropped the range? Isildur will put all the barrels possible into you.
But due to his game, Galfond would have been the overwhelming favorite in any case. I would estimate the chances at 70 to 30 or 75 to 25.
Avr0ra: Isildur, as far as I know, is not a fan of theoretical preparation. He is a player of practice. He sits down and plays, and in the process, he gets into shape. Many things that he came up with in those years have now become a standard, for example, overbetting the turn. Before Isildur, no one played like that, and the maximum sizing was 3/4 of the pot. After a while, the machines showed that overbetting the turn plus checking the river is almost a standard combination. Was there something similar in Omaha?
Gragik: I wouldn't say so, but in Omaha, his constant aggression was also noticeable, he was constantly using very large sizes. Now I understand what to do, but back then, the average regular with less experience had no chance, he just runs over you like a train. There's no way to escape.
Who Finds it Easier to Transition to Omaha: a Beginner or a Pro?
Brdz1: You mentioned that you have a course on the transition from Hold'em to Omaha at GreenLine. So I wanted to ask how hard is it to transition to Omaha for a beginner, and how hard is it for a professional? I was very surprised when I found out that Vova NeNaZavode decided to become an Omaha reg.
Gragik: Yes, we are in touch with him now, he plans to cover his progress. It will be interesting to watch.
I'll start from afar. Hold'em players are much more technically savvy, and the whole poker scene for NL players is simply head and shoulders above that of Omaha players: you're more disciplined, you have better tools... In recent years, this has changed slightly in the other direction, but overall it's a fair statement.
When switching to Omaha, all the players I watched coped, but in different amounts of time. The most successful player in the pool made the switch in literally two months. He played select, of course, but also Hold'em and Omaha, and 4 and 5 cards. Some needed half a year. A player like Linus, I think, would need a few months at most to not lose at $25/$50, but at the highest stakes, of course, longer.
Avr0ra: Another great example is Stanislav Borntotilt (s.melhui on GG), an old-school cash game player. We shared the NL2000 lobby with him on 888poker, and at some point, he decided to switch to Omaha completely. A year later, bam — he's already sitting at PL40000 tables.
Gragik: Yes, that's how it was.
Avr0ra: So there are examples of successful transitions, but they depend heavily on the person. Somewhere around 2012, I played about 20,000 hands of Omaha, and I remember my feelings: it's a completely different game. I guarantee that everything won't be clear right away.
Brdz1: Is it advisable to combine Hold'em and Omaha? Especially live, where Omaha is more popular and the regulars don't seem to put as much pressure.
Gragik: It depends a lot on the stakes. But I doubt there are many successful examples. If you aim to play high, you definitely need to concentrate on one discipline. Even if it's heads-up and 6-max, they also need to be separated. The higher the stakes, the more important technical preparation is.
At low stakes it's different. At the same PLO100-PLO200 you can sit at the table, like at a machine, and just wait for the nuts. In this case, it is possible to combine, but at higher stakes it will be much more difficult.
Avr0ra: When my main poker room was PokerStars, many players selected both Hold'em and Omaha. But if I noticed someone in both the Hold'em and Omaha lobby, I would immediately mark them. Most likely, he can't play either. Like a sofa bed, both the sofa and the bed are bad. There were exceptions, for example, boerni21 (Bernard Larabee on GG). Maybe he's a complete loser in Omaha, but he was definitely strong in Hold'em. He was probably the only exception.
Gragik: Yes, a person with such a big 3-bet.
Playing Live Poker
Brdz1: I play more live poker now, and I often see guys sitting down at neighboring tables to play something strange: 5 cards, 2 flops, and then a huge rake... To what extent is this a game of skill, or are they just riding the waves of variance?
Gragik: In the format you just described, it's not a skill game at all. Huge rake, the rake cap is always taken from the banks, there are bomb pots, the organizers can do a lot of things... More often than not, everything just goes to rake.
Brdz1: I saw this story. A game is being put together, 4 people are needed to start, but one is missing. They call and ask: "Diman, where are you?" He comes and answers: "Yes, I was practicing on the casino machines." It sounds like a joke, but if you imagine the display, then it is no longer a joke, you just move from one machine to another.
By the way, I know that casinos give players a choice: pay $100 per hour and there will be no rake. Maybe this solves the problem?
Avr0ra: The rake is still very high. Very few hands are played per hour, constant multi-pots. I once played with an amateur who prefers either 5-Card Omaha with 2 flops or Hold'em. Hold'em is like fishing for him. You sit and relax, and the fish bite or don't. 5-Card Omaha with 2 flops is like hunting. You have battles every once in a while, either you win, or you lose. Even if you win, there's nothing left of you. So I think that Omaha is still unbeatable.
Top Omaha Players Right Now
Brdz1: If you were asked to rank the top 5 PLO players of all time, who would you rank?
Gragik: The top 1 in all time winnings is Ben "Ben86/Bttech86" Tollerene, an Omaha legend.
Brdz1: Even more than "Cumicon"?
Gragik: I think so, and decently so. But "Cumicon" is definitely top 1 in heads-up, always held the whole lobby: open any site, he is everywhere.
I'll definitely name Grazvis. Also "omaha4rollz" (Laszlo Bujtas) – he's probably the smartest, most resourceful guy, and you have to think constantly when playing with him. As soon as you start playing on the machine, he immediately takes you apart piece by piece.
Avr0ra: I prepared one hand of "omaha4rollz". For you, it's probably a trifle, but for us, hold'em players, it's just complete madness. Here he bluffs on the river, representing exclusively a straight flush! Imagine: they put the pot on us on the river, we raise, probably as a bluff, get 3-bet and push, trying to knock out a full house.
Gragik: Yeah, that's his style. I think I can find more than one or even five hands like that. "Omaha4rollz" is famous for making such crazy moves.
"BERRI SWEET" stands out separately, it seems to be successful in all formats. I still need to add a fifth…
Brdz1: Maybe Galfond?
Gragik : Yes, Galfond. You know, there is an award for contribution to art at the Oscars. Galfond should definitely receive it. He is a top-level player who has made the biggest contribution to the development of Omaha. Remember how Galfond announced a challenge a few years ago, in which the strongest poker players took part? And he beat them all.
(Editor's note: we covered many of the matches in detail on GipsyTeam, like this one against Daniel "Jungleman" Cates)
Avr0ra: Yes, it was a legendary challenge, especially the first match, with Dirk VeniVidi. First a one-sided ravine, then a one-sided comeback, all at a distance of 25 thousand hands. So it's not a dispersion or not just a dispersion, but a comeback of skill?
Gragik: Yes. Galfond himself described the match and his feelings in some detail. Context: Phil hadn't played for a long time, was doing business, developing his room, then came back. At first, he thought that everyone was playing very balanced and spending dozens of hours in solvers, so he started playing like a solver. But in the end, he lost. I know how Dirk plays well, I'm sure that, at first, Phil overcalled the rivers very strongly. And then Galfond took a break and started playing the old way, conditionally by intuition, and the match immediately turned around. He started making subtle folds with second nuts, started folding more often to check-raises on the river (we know this well, the match was broadcast with open cards), made some more adjustments, and won.
The Boycott Against GGPoker: Reasons for Failure
Avr0ra: Let's go back in time, dear viewers. In April 2023, GG raised the rake on high-stakes Hold'em, the regulars banded together and organized a boycott, which somehow worked.
Part of the reason for the success was that the lobby became completely empty. GG made contact, the rake was returned to what it was before, and everything went on as usual.
In September, Omaha players tried to organize their boycott. The main complaint: regs pay 7-8 bb/100, and in Omaha, unlike Hold'em, the rake is the same at all stakes. Whether you play NL100k or NL5000, the percentage is the same. It sounds unfair, because in Hold'em and all other rooms, the higher the limit, the lower the rake. But in the end, the protest failed, many still sat down at the tables, including Daniel Cates.
Did you participate in the boycott yourself? Tell us how it looked from your side and whether anything could have been done better.
Gragik: I participated in the boycott, we also had a group of high-stakes regulars, and we tried to unite. But the Omaha players had very weak negotiating positions. The sequence of events is as follows: in Hold'em there were certain conditions, they were changed, and you reacted. In Omaha, the high rake was always there, and we just sat there, indignant: "GG is a dump, who plays here anyway?" And everyone continued to play.
Brdz1: This is the player base.
Gragik: Looking at the guys from Hold'em, we also wanted to make our own strike. As I understand, for the GG management it was a pretty cool story. Like, where were you before? This also affected the players themselves, no one believed in success, and there was no moral uplift in the spirit of: "Yeah, let's defend our rights."
The second point: lack of organization. We had a group where there was no leader or several leaders, no one wanted to do routine work. Then some regular from lower stakes showed up and started the movement, but it still didn't work.
Avr0ra: I didn't believe that we, in Hold'em, would succeed. Usually, you open a lobby and at any moment there are tables, five, ten, sometimes more. And when the boycott began, the lobby completely died out – as if everyone supported the protest. Of course, the rake was raised twofold! And no one won anything anyway, and they raised it not by 10%, but by two times. As a result, the lobby was completely empty for 10 days. I think that's why the boycott worked.
GG, of course, said that they had calculated everything and entered into negotiations only because they realized that it was not beneficial for them. But in fact, no. It was just the most empty lobby that worked.
You didn't have such a contrast, as if almost nothing had changed. Some people still played, but not everyone supported, plus there was little play overall.
Avr0ra: I'll tell you a little insider from Elky, I think he won't be offended. From the very beginning, GG was not going to meet us halfway, because according to their statistics, the average Omaha reg in VIP games wins significantly more than the average Hold'em reg. Do you think this is really true?
Gragik: It could easily be true. Of course, when we don't see specific numbers, it could be the difference between a 0bb/100 winrate and a 2bb/100 winrate. In GG's eyes, that could be a significant difference.
I wanted to say a few words about supporting the boycott: in reality, everything was much worse! Many people played. I would like to separately mention Sergey Vasilev, who is Stickman.
Avr0ra: Legendary player.
Gragik: A legendary player, yes. And he confirmed his legend status by being at the tables 24/7 during the boycott.
Avr0ra: Sergey became famous about fifteen years ago in limit hold'em, and has always been Feruell's main enemy.
Why Switch to Omaha?
Avr0ra: GreenLine is now actively calling for switching to Omaha, both from Hold'em and MTT. It seemed to me that there was no such serious agitation for the transition before. I wonder, why this is so? Some kind of Omaha boom in apps?
Gragik: The numbers may differ from site to site, but in general the main reason is the same: Omaha has higher win rates and everyone can earn more, both the players and the fund. More money, softer conditions. And GreenLine has built a well-established system to lead players from the bottom to high stakes, and when cooperation is beneficial for everyone, everything starts moving more actively.
Avr0ra: There are fewer regs in Omaha than in Hold'em, and there are fewer games, but not that much. Is that how it works?
Gragik: Today we remembered Vova NeNaZavode, a strong Hold'em player who is now switching to Omaha. When he played NL200-400, he often had to choose a time to find a full lobby. Recently, we met at a meeting in Tbilisi and he told me that he can play Omaha 24/7. Sometimes he doesn't even want to leave the tables, the game is so profitable. Of course, the higher, the drier, there is very little game at PL2000+.
Where Bots Are Playing
Avr0ra: Strong bots for Omaha from a solver point of view were written a long time ago. They used to play on PokerStars and in iPoker rooms, but they were actively banned there. As a result, there is exactly zero Omaha play on Stars. Bots have a strong algorithm in Hold'em, and I know where they play: ACR, GG. They are banned there, accounts are recreated and everything starts over. And bots are everywhere: in tournaments and in cash. Where do Omaha bots play?
Gragik: At one time there were a lot of bots on WPN. Then the room started cooperating with JNandez, the creator of PLO Mastermind, and bots began to be actively recognized and banned. At the moment I can say for sure that there are none at PLO1000 and higher, perhaps they remained at lower stakes.
They are probably in the apps, so you need to select clubs so as not to play with them. But here I am a little less sure because there was a big story with WPN, which everyone discussed in the home crowd. And the home botnet is not the same: I saw how someone wrote on the forum that he specifically selected such bots.
A few years ago, before we collaborated with GreenLine, I was giving private training to a PL100 reg. I saw two bots sitting at his table, it was obvious from the stats. So yeah, I think they still exist in open clubs.
But in applications, teamplay is much more frightening.
Avr0ra: Scarier than bots?
Gragik: 100%. Especially in 5-Card, you and your friend have half a deck.
Avr0ra: If bots have an algorithm, they will want to use it somehow. In Hold'em I know where they are, and I feel more or less at ease. But in Omaha, I don't understand where they are.
Gragik: At lower stakes, PLO600 and below. Most likely, there will be most of them at PLO100, PLO200, because there is more traffic, and stronger rotation of players.
Avr0ra : But still in apps?
Gragik: Yes, among other things. But again, it's a bit more difficult for me to talk about applications, we mainly discuss teamplay.
Avr0ra: It's cool if you have a confrontation between bots and team players, and they balance each other.
Gragik: If we recall all sorts of dirty stuff: recently there was a big scandal that surprisingly few people heard about. Someone posted a video on Twitter of a Brazilian bot farm, where, like in the notorious times of Max Katz, a bunch of people are sitting in a room, they have a farm of phones with applications open – a poker hell is going on, in a kind of dungeon.
Avr0ra: What do you think about the prospects of Omaha on GG? Can the situation ever improve?
Gragik: Honestly, I don't see any reason for optimism, especially after the scandal with the funds. Bryksin laid everything out openly and honestly, and for me it was an insight: this is how we distribute roles, this is how the site sees regs.
I think that on GG it will be either the same or worse. We should hardly expect any significant improvements.
Is Tournament Omaha a Lottery?
Avr0ra: Tournament Omaha is definitely more popular now than it was a few years ago. There are Triton tournaments, and high-stakes WSOP tournaments. I heard that the fields are much softer there, there are a lot of hold'em players in the tournaments. And the structure is crazy! You obviously know how to play Omaha, you sit down to play Triton for $20,000, where 200 people play. The average stack on the bubble will be 20 BB – not much of an advantage. Is it a complete lottery? How do you see the expectation in such tournaments?
Gragik: I think the expectations will be very high. I have little experience, I played a couple of $5-$10 thousand tournaments over the last year, and the level of opponents was really very low. Especially compared to online, where the five best Omaha players sit in each tournament. I didn't manage to go to the WSOP this year, but friends told me about cosmically sweet lineups, especially in the $10,000 tournament with several hundred entries.
But you are absolutely right that the dispersion will be crazy. However, somehow this is apparently compensated by the edge. There is one top reg whose account I reset on Stars several years ago. After some time I looked at his page on Hendon Mob, and he won three or four major live tournaments in a year, and after that I did not see him online at all.
Avr0ra: If the fields are so weak, it turns out that aHold'em reg who understands ICM can learn preflop theory and that will be enough to play in the black?
Gragik: It will take some time to understand the equity and tighten up the preflop. There will be many non-trivial decisions: due to the closeness of the equity with the ante, you can limp almost 100% of the range, with the SB you need to build a strategy of limp-raise, limp-call, and limp-fold... Technically, there is nothing complicated, you can quickly show some positive ROI. But for really good results, you need to "tune your intuition", you should have an understanding of equity and the mechanics of the game itself.
Avr0ra: I know a lot of people who have learned a little bit of the rules, learned ICM, and are ready to jump into tournaments. It turns out that this is not such a terrible strategy, considering that the fields are very weak.
Hold'em and Omaha Prospects
Brdz1: If the prospects for Hold'em are pretty clear, what will happen to Omaha? I think the game has a good future due to its dynamics. Live fans often told me how in Hold'em, they have to sit for a long time, wait for their favorite hand, and then go with it. And the same player in Omaha, try to beat him: 10 cards, two flops, he'll get something.
Gragik: 10 cards – that's if he's sitting with a friend.
I want to ask a counter-question first. I am already far from Hold'em, and you say that the prospects are clear. What are they?
Brdz1: It seems to me that the game will gradually become more dense at high-stakes and mid-stakes. The rooms will increase the rake and tighten the conditions, especially if no competitor appears for GGPoker. At the quality level, it is unlikely that anything will change in the near future. Plus or minus, everything will move along the same trajectory, slightly downward.
Avr0ra: If it's online, I agree. We have two problems – artificial intelligence and a huge rake. But live, Hold'em will grow. Pensioners really love Hold'em, and they are the ones who feed us. The average age of the population is getting older and older. Come to the casino, even here in Argentina, everything is filled with pensioners. In America, it's even tougher. In China, in Macau too. And Hold'em is a cool game for old men, you can always take a break, fold something, or you can pull off a gigabluff. I think the prospects are excellent, there will be more tournament series that will compete with each other.
Gragik: Interesting. In terms of stakes and rake, I can say more or less the same about Omaha as Dima. There is general stagnation. I always remember a post on the forum, I don’t remember who wrote it… It outlined the fate of online poker for years to come. They said that over the next 5-7 years, the rake will increase, the influx of money into the poker economy will decrease, and, accordingly, the average limit will decrease. And that’s what’s happening, it just took more years. I was slightly wrong with the timing, but I described everything accurately.
Avr0ra: But he's wrong! The influx of money has increased greatly, it's just not going into the pockets of regulars. Casino popularity is breaking all records, it's even already displacing sports betting. Poker is still part of the casino sphere, and something is flowing to us too. So in this, the author of the post was probably wrong, it's precisely the money in the industry that is becoming more and more. Business has simply become smarter: it understands that there's no need to share money with some guys who have learned to play something.
Gragik: Maybe. I was impressed by how right the man was about the stakes. Every year I see the game and the action disappearing, and the average limit moving lower and lower.
Overall, Omaha has higher win rates, and I think it will stay that way, despite all the advertising. It's very difficult to convert people from Hold'em to Omaha. In terms of convenience, Hold'em can be compared to a Cadillac, and Omaha to a bus with wild people, or a UAZ, which we use to go hunting.
Online, everything will develop approximately as in Hold'em. Offline, there is Vegas, there are cool exclusively Omaha series. Live cash in Omaha looks very promising. True, everything is migrating towards a larger number of cards and all sorts of sophistication with two boards, a pensioner will not have a rest at all.
Avr0ra: They say that you have a positive outlook on life, our mutual friends only speak positively about you. You've been playing more than me, you've probably experienced both sides of the crazy variance. How much does this help you cope with it in Omaha?
Gragik: Thank you for the kind words. Over time, the variance has not become more forgiving for me. Emotions still arise, but I have learned to cope with them a little better, to redirect them into gray hair, so that I go gray, but remain, as they say, adequate.
Omaha has definitely toughened me up. Whenever someone tells me they lost 10 buy-ins in a session, I think, "Let's talk about something else."
I really like what you do! Charging yourself with positivity and charging others is great. I advise everyone to do this.
Brdz1: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking to you.
Avr0ra: Yes, thank you very much for coming.