In January, Triton's organizers launched the Chirp and a Chair podcast. It's hosted by Jonathan Jaffe and Seth Davis, and has featured Stephen Chidwick, Leon Sturm, and Chris Moneymaker as guests. Judging by the context, the episodes that are airing now were filmed back in mid-2024, and no one thought to ask Chris about the scandals of Americas Cardroom.
In fact, the podcast opened with a very warm welcome:
"Chris stays true to who he's always been; the people's champion, the average Joe that poker player still look up to."
Jonathan Jaffe : Welcome to "Chirp in a Chair" with the newest Triton winner, Chris Moneymaker.
Chris Moneymaker : Not the newest, there was one won yesterday.
Jonathan: Wow, they don’t know that we can air this at the right time.
Chris: We’ve been imprisoned as podcast hosts now, but we’re good with it.
Jonathan: Alright, let me tell you the origin story. Wake up and was told: "Hey, do you want to do a Triton with Pete?" Absolutely. We hopped in, and Pete told us that whoever was the previous guest would be the next host. And then we do a podcast, and then they said, "No, you guys are just the hosts."
Seth Davis: We're prisoners now, basically.
Chris: If poker doesn’t work out, you know…
Jonathan: So, the question everyone wants to ask after you take down a Triton: Are we in for a second poker boom?
Chris: It would be pretty cool, but the problem with the second boom is the buy-ins; they're a little too drastic to get people to come in. It would be pretty cool. I mean, Triton’s becoming more and more popular as people watch it and see not just crushers but also regular guys have a chance.
Jonathan: Maybe be downplaying your skill a little bit. You’ve been a pretty full-time player for a long time
Chris: I wouldn’t say full-time. I don’t play near as much as the majority of people. Thankfully, I can pick and choose where I get to play or what I want to play. My kids are getting older; I figure I’ve got about six more years, and then I can become a full-time player if I want at that time.
Seth: How’s that going for you? Talk about the first couple of years after that. How was your approach to poker compared to, say, the last ten?
Chris: Well, so I won the World Series, and then in the next term, I played and got second at the WPT. So all of a sudden, I thought I was the best poker player on the planet. Back then, there were no other materials to learn, so I started playing almost nonstop. I was constantly on the go with interviews and appearances, and my wife was with me. We were really, really busy; we saw the world and got to do a lot of cool things.
I played a lot of poker. After I got second in the WPT, everything kind of went downhill over the next five or six years. Almost. The good thing is I was sponsored through most of it, but you still want to win. And, you know, I was blaming everything on run-bad and variance and everything. It wasn’t my fault because I was the best player. I just never studied at all. At this point, poker was still easy, but it was getting harder and harder.
Seth: What else!
Chris really had a good start to his career, with 10th and 3rd places to follow.Chris: I mean, they were starting to understand more strategically. Sites were coming out, and 3-betting wasn’t just about aces or kings. Poker in 2003 was so nice. So, yeah, I mean, the game evolved, and I didn’t really evolve with it. Basically, I looked at opportunities and the cost of trying to learn how to keep up with the game, or I started having kids and being a father and doing all these other things. So I started tailing back from poker a while. I would go, and whenever my sponsor wanted me to go play, or I played the Main Event, which I still do that—go out to Vegas for six weeks during the summer.
So I did that for many years. And recently, I’m playing a little bit more but just being more selective. I play a couple of Triton events; I started my own tour, so I play that and then the Main Event. That’s pretty much my schedule for the year.
Jonathan: You mentioned that WPT. I remember it as a $5,000 event, and Phil Gordon won it. So like, I have a memory of you winning the Main Event, but it’s fuzzy because I watched it so many times. We just rewatch those episodes again and again. It’s like, yeah, I don’t know what the first time was like when I saw, "Oh my God, he’s actually going to win." But when you got second in the WPT, I remember where I was. I remember bouncing off my couch like, "Look, he’s at it again." This is this guy. Let’s go. And I was such a fan. I was so excited.
And I remember there was an epic ending. Can you tell us how that tournament ended?
Chris: Yeah. So we got three-handed, and the short stack moved all-in, and Phil called. I looked down and had two pocket jacks. At the time, Phil was the chip leader, and I was second in chips. Honestly, I didn’t even know if we busted at the same time. Like, if I would get second or third, I thought I would get second, but I really wanted to win.
Seth: Maybe the tournament floor didn’t even know.
Chris: I mean, again, like when I was playing, you couldn’t even check-raise in a lot of rooms. It wasn’t even allowed. So, like, I just wanted to confirm if I went bust on this hand with jacks—do you know? Would I get second place? They confirmed I did. So I shipped all-in, and you know, Gordon starts crying and goes into the tank and finally calls with ace-seven.
Jonathan: Not many tournaments can end like that today, right?
Chris: Yeah, exactly. The short stack was really short; it would have put me in a pretty big lead. I don’t know where the ace came from, but the ace came at some point in the hand. I don’t know if it was what made me lose. And Phil, you know, stood up seven feet tall and shook my hand. Everyone’s like, "I didn’t know you were so short." I’m like, "Dude, I’m short." But, like, you’re not that short.
Seth: You saw a bunch of these 18, 19, 20-year-old kids start becoming pros and more prevalent in the game. Now, you know, it’s been a long time later. You have kids almost that age yourself. Like, how has it been to see that happen?
Chris: Well, you know, it’s weird because when I won, I would do charity events, and all these young kids would want to come up and like, because poker was just so big back then. And it was big for a long time. Then, obviously, with Black Friday and whatnot, it took away almost a generation of poker players. They all started playing DFS or Fortnite or whatever.
I think now with all the vloggers and content creators in poker, you’re actually starting to see all these kids coming back in. It’s kind of surreal seeing all these kids that come in. I was playing with a 21-year-old kid the other day for the first time, and then I can remember this happening. I’m playing with a guy, this kid, and he had no clue who I was.
Jonathan: That’s awesome.
Chris: He beats me in a pot, and everybody’s like, "Hey, way to go, kid. You beat Chris!" He’s like, "Who the eff is this?"
Seth: That kid might not have been alive when you won the Main Event!
Jonathan: You know, playing with you the other day was the first time I played with you in years. And I actually remember the first time I ever saw you. We met very briefly, but it was at Johnny Rockets at PCA. And I just see you, like, over in a booth getting a burger. I’m like, "I got to say hi." I got to introduce myself; I’m like, "I’m not here without this guy." There’s this separation. You know, the other day we got to chat a little bit, and there’s Chris, the man who I’ve played maybe like 40 orbits with lifetime. And then there’s Moneymaker, this mythical figure that, like, you know, I’m only here because of him.
And my story is like so similar to so many other guys. You know, watching you was like a combination of you and Rounders. But honestly, 80% of the 2003 WSOP, I’m just like, "This is the coolest thing ever." And like, poker was not on my radar at all. Two years later, I was a professional.
Seth: Just an endless amount of stories of people who just worked it up from nothing or next to nothing. And, like, a good friend of mine, he started just playing freerolls on Full Tilt—this was around 2006 or something—and he had $1 million on Full Tilt within like a year. Crazy stories like that.
Yeah, and that’s, you know, why we missed out on this next generation of poker players. They had no opportunity like that. Like, we were just so lucky to be in that specific age band where we could be on the computer for a week, just playing five years doing nothing, and loving every second of it.
Seth: Do you have any funny stories about being recognized in public or somebody saying something memorable?
Chris: Well, I guess my funniest story is one that really hits me. So, I got invited to a Hollywood party back in 2005, maybe. I’m at this random party with a bunch of celebrities and business people, and I’m just talking to a buddy of mine. A guy comes up behind me and puts his hand on my shoulder and says, "Dude, I’m a huge fan." When I turn around, it’s Leonardo DiCaprio.
Jonathan: Is it really?
Seth: Oh yeah, he loves poker. He’s a big poker fan.
Chris: And then, about a year ago, maybe two years ago—time flies—I’m in bed with my wife at about 11 PM, and I get a phone call from my lawyer. He’s like, "What are you doing?" I’m like, "Dude, I’m in bed." He’s like, "We’re playing poker. Come on up here." I’m like, "Man, I’m not getting out of bed." He’s like, "Justin Timberlake’s here and he wants you to get here." I said, "Buddy, I love you, but I’m not getting out of bed."
Seth: Oh, shit. Maybe I am getting out of bed.
Chris: So, my lawyer has access to my bracelet, and Justin Timberlake wanted to wear it when he did the halftime show for the Super Bowl. It was two nights before he was going out to perform. He wanted to do some kind of homage because he’s from Memphis, and he wanted to wear my bracelet during the show. I’m like, "Man, he can’t wear my bracelet." It’s like, this big! Yeah, no way, it would not fit. So he took it out there to try and wear it, but he couldn’t do it while dancing.
Jonathan: Alright, hang on. Seth and I are having a quick game. Over-under set the line on how many times Chris has been asked in person if Moneymaker is his real name.
Seth: I'm going to say a thousand times.
Jonathan: I think, 20 years, that's 50 times a year. Like at the WSOP, when they're all flying in. These days, people are not going to be that way. No, I'm going under.
Chris: I'm going to say it's over.
Seth: Yes, sir.
Chris: So Poker News called me up on April Fool's Day, the day before, and they wanted to do a bit. They said, "Listen, guys, you know, can you film something, and we'll put it out?" So, it's kind of funny because back when I won the World Series, I played two different satellites—I played a $40 and an $86 satellite. And, I guess, the ticket that I technically used for my seat was the $86. So, I wrote a book that's a $39 to $2.5 million story. And it came out later that the ticket wasn't even from the $39 satellite. So, I started this video saying, "Listen, guys, you know, I lied to you about the buy-in, but that's not all I lied to you about." And I'm sorry; I feel bad about this. It's been, you know, 15 some odd years, and my name is Christopher O'Brien Smith.
And they had a picture of my ID that they made up—I was like, you know, I don't want to hide this anymore. It's been weighing on me for years, and I just want to apologize to everybody. And, you know, I told my fans I'm really sorry. I just hope you forgive me. You know, I'll be seeing you around—Chris Smith out.
Jonathan: So kind of brings us to a question about your studying now and what your game looks like. You know, we’ve gotten a chance to see you play. And, obviously, it’s night and day compared to everyone from that era. But you said you’ve been studying. How’s that going?
Chris: I don’t study as much as most people. I know what GTO means, but I couldn’t tell you a whole lot of GTO theory. I don’t know ICM theory that well. Well, I still play a lot of street poker. I know a lot more fundamentals. Back then, I didn't know what opening ranges were.
Seth: It didn't even really exist.
Chris: Right, you put people on hands, like "You have Ace King and that's it," you never thought in ranges. I've studied what you're supposed to raise and the appropriate raising for different stack sizes. And I know when to three-bet. A lot of it is just trial and error and then, based on opponents. I know enough fundamentals to do what I’m supposed to, and then I try not to do what everybody else does.
Jonathan: At every table, players have some perception of you—even if it’s wrong. How does that dynamic play out?
Chris: Well, me and Hellmuth always joked we get the most polarized play. People either avoid us or target us. In cash games, it’s obvious: one guy’s coming after me (and he’ll be broke in an hour), while another avoids me. I’ve spent 20 years (well, 5 years of it I didn't have to cultivate anything, I did suck) that I'm not very good at poker. I don't know why would you want to be seen as good at poker? You don’t get invited to good games, people avoid you, it's like, "I'm the worst player in the world!."
So I’ve always tried to maintain this "loose fish" image who likes to have fun and gamble. It's worked for me for 20 years. People will give me tons of action. I call wider than most people, go for thinner value, and its always generally worked out.
Jonathan: So, who you actually most want to get a beer with, and who you least want?
Chris: Wow. Okay, cool. That’s a good one.
Seth: Who the bottom?
Chris: Joe McKeehen! He was my coach for a little.
Seth: He was probably a good guy for you to learn from because he’s very aggressive.
Chris: I like Joe, but you know his reputation, right?
Jonathan: You're so good with the fans and somebody comes up to Joe for an autograph, and he goes, "Go away." He has no problem being standoffish.
Chris: I got a funny story about Joe. We’re doing a session, and I’m telling him that I got an appearance this weekend, and I’m getting paid an X amount, a good amount of money. And he’s like, "I want to do appearances." "How do I do those?" Like, first of all, you have to be a decent human being, so you can’t be an ass. He’s like, "Oh, never mind."
Jonathan: Then the funny thing is, he’s so standoffish, but he’s also just approachable if you know him and you’re in his inner circle
Seth: So what about the other side? Who's most likely you want to have a beer with?
Chris: Oh yeah, it’s probably gonna be Doyle Brunson or Stu Ungar. I mean Stu would probably be number one. Just, I mean, you know, I would love to know: Was he just a natural grinder back in 2001 or whatever? Like, he just a true prodigy so far ahead of his time. He understood, you know, aggression and ranges and all that stuff. And I mean, can you imagine putting any of us back in those fields with this knowledge?
Seth: Phew.
Chris: Have you guys gone back and watched "Rounders" recently? When I watched "Rounders" for the first time, I thought it was perfectly normal. That’s how you play poker. But then you go back, and they’re like playing with 25 big blinds—opening to 2500. It’s like, "What the f***?"
Jonathan: I like to think that both Tom Dwan and Jungleman had like 18-month periods where they were like Stu Ungar for a minute, just so far ahead and tearing everyone up. We were just like baby lambs for them.
Chris: I think it was all the Scandinavian guys back in, you know, early 2006, 2007 that just figured out hyper-aggression was the way to go.
Jonathan: The Americans and Canadians were just so passive, getting crushed everywhere.
Seth: It was funny how there were regional bubbles very real back then.
Jonathan: When you grow up in this ecosystem playing a certain type of player and you’re like, "This hasn’t failed for three years—I’m killing it." And then you go play in a different ecosystem. You’re like, "Oh my God, this is backwards."
Seth: And once like training and global training content started becoming a thing—okay, you get tight Scandinavians now.
Jonathan: Now all the English-speaking countries—anybody who had decent English—could access all the training content. And then at a certain point, there’s Russian content, now there’s Portuguese for the Brazilians, etc. And, you know, even starting to see some French stuff. There might be a day when we actually see a good French player.
Jonathan: You don't think it's going to happen?
Seth: We’ll see, we’ll see. That’s a good card question. Who’s the best French player? There were two French guys who gave the French some credit. The two really good French mixed game players. Okay. I forget their names, but they’ve won a ton. But for no limit—we're still looking. Still looking for one.
Jonathan: Julien Martini?
Seth: No, no.
Chris: Bruno Fitoussi or whatever. He was pretty good for his time. That’s about the best French player I can think of.
Seth: I think Sylvain Loosli is who I think is the best French player.
Jonathan: Davidi Kitai is great. He was a monster. You ever played with Davidi?
Chris: I couldn’t pick him out. Okay. He’s like one of the most unique poker players in the fact that, like, I don’t know many poker players. I don’t ever watch poker on TV. Never done the European stuff, never watched on TV. I’m not as bad as, you know, the story of Phil where he was playing with Vanessa Selbst and had no clue who she was.
Jonathan: I love to see that.
Chris: It was on TV. Phil's like, "yeah, I have no idea who you are,” or something like that. She was like offended by it.
Jonathan: If you were a pro wrestler, what would your entrance music be?
Chris: Oh, I mean, it's got to be "Eye of the Tiger."
Jonathan: If you could be friends with anyone from history, who would it be?
Chris: I’m going to go completely random: Chris Farley, because I think he’d be fun as hell to hang out with.
Chris Farley – comedian, star of the show Saturday Night Live. He died in 1997 at the age of 33 from a drug overdoseSeth : Whose life would make the best poker movie?
Chris : I mean, it’s going to be like Stu or Doyle for sure.
Jonathan: I'm going modern, I’m going with Andrew Robl.
Seth: I was thinking, Mr. Paul, he was born in this humble situation and became this crazy successful guy.
Jonathan: You ever see the poker movie "Lucky You" with Eric Bana?
Chris: Yeah, I’m waiting on my royalties. No, but seriously, they stole everything. The number of entrants was something Matt Savage was the consultant. It’s like they had 839 players with the same story as mine. I had very specific details. They completely ripped off my story and added some father figure in it.
Jonathan: The movie features the son and dad having a frosty relationship; they’re both poker players, they both make the final table, and then I think it’s like the son has the winning hand and mucks it to let the dad win or something. It’s some comical nonsense.
And I remember being like, "This is just unrealistic." It’s only like 10% more unrealistic than your story, which was real. You and Sammy Farha, heads-up, your name's "Moneymaker."
Chris: it’s like this perfect amateur, someone you just want to go have a beer with. And then you had Sammy, who was the perfect villain. He’s the classic wise guy with his dressing and huge collar.
He was at central casting for the villain. Yeah. So, like, it’s so weird how the universe works because, like, for us two to get heads-up, poker was gonna eventually take off, but to have that happen in that moment that way. We’ve been talking about doing a movie about it forever, but the movie was already made.
