The legendary Spaniard DavyJones is good in every way, except for one thing: he doesn’t really study English.
This is not really a shortcoming for DavyJones (Roberto Pérez), but as a result, we rarely hear from him and he doesn’t go to the most popular podcasts. But when he gave a nearly three-hour interview to the Mentopoker channel in early January, the GipsyTeam editorial team decided that it was no longer possible to tolerate all this. So we called on a real Spaniard for help — and now we can tell you what Pérez told professional player, coach, and streamer Miguel Teus.
— We are with none other than the best cash player, not only in the Spanish community, but in the world. With us: Roberto Pérez, better known as DavyJones922.
– How are you, Miguel?
— The last time we spoke was 4 years ago, and since then you have become a much more public person.
— Well, the first thing I'm going to start with is with the changes in life. Because I'm not much of a sharer either, people are surprised because I'm uploading things on social media all day, but I don't really publish much about my life. if you see the pictures of my engagement, you may think, damn, how didn’t I see this girl before? For me, the topic of Instagram, social networks and so on is quite professional. I enjoy doing it, but it is professional. But I have seen you much more, I don't know if you have changed many aspects since the first talk we had, in your personal life, to today.
Roberto with his girlfriend Sole— Also, before this talk, you told me “I'm going to take a little walk”, I don't know if it's just for a walk or if it's for something else, but I notice your face with more energy, honestly, with more shine.
— Yes, totally. When I told you about taking a walk, it is a routine that I have more or less picked up wherever I am, taking a small morning walk. I practically get up and I go out for a walk with whatever I’m wearing. Not much, some 20 minutes, half an hour, just enough to activate. Here in Mexico it comes more naturally to me, because it’s not the same to be in England in the cold and take a walk with your coat on. Here it seems that you get up, see the sun and your body asks for it. In fact, here in Mexico I usually always get up earlier, I'm usually on my feet at 9am. And there in England I always keep a schedule a little more like 10:30, something like that.
— You lived, for quite some time, in that area across the Atlantic. What is that kind of vision like? Seeing Mexico and saying, “my goodness, this is paradise”. Doesn't that just go away once you've been there for a few months? Or is it always like being on vacation there?
— Yes, I think it happens with everything, that when you get used to something you stop valuing it so much. But since I'm always coming and going, and I only spend four or five months a year here, if I'm here four months at a time, I can stop valuing it so much. But since I'm going to Europe later, I miss it quickly. I always have more perspective because I’m constantly moving.
— Yeah, that also makes you enjoy the England part. Is there something to enjoy about England?
— In my case yes, because in the end I have created very great bonds there. I have very good friends, I have my brother there, so I no longer take it as simply going to enjoy the country, I am going to see people that I really care about. And with my lifestyle, in which I move a lot, it’s not easy to find moments to maintain contact with the people who matter to you, with your stronger ties and the people who have been important in your life and still are today. So I take England more as a time when I catch up with those people. And on the other hand, it’s also usually a time when I push a lot professionally.
I usually divide my year into several stages. There is the time when I literally do nothing, which may be a month, a month and a half or two months, whatever. Then there are usually a few months, which I link more with Mexico, in which I am at 70-75%. There, poker is a very important part, it’s key in my daily life, but it’s not the only thing. It is not a priority or a must, that if I don’t focus the day on the professional, the day is not worth it. No. So, those months that I’m here, I am performing at a high level, but not at the highest level, because then I take the months in England to give it all that push that I’ve been missing. I finish creating content for coaching topics, teach classes that I have overdue, review certain situations that I abandoned a little, whatever. So for me, those months in England have a double meaning: to catch up with people who are time to maintain contact and maintain ties, and also to squeeze in work because surely the last few months in Mexico have been a little looser.
— In economics, that is known as opportunity cost. Being in England, where outside is less appealing than what you have in Mexico. That's why surely in colder countries, for example, there are better players on average born there. I mean that in warmer, more pleasant countries, perhaps in more Latin American countries, the idea that has been imposed on us, the culture that we have, is less about destroying your life to work and work – so that at 60 you can go to Mexico to live.
— Yes, yes, totally. Here I have met Mexican people, but the really main link has been with the Argentine population, without a doubt. Argentines are now all over the world and yes, when we talk about the subject I always say it: they have, at least those who have come here, a more relaxed approach to life, not so focused on work. And not only at work but also, for example, in saving, and in that need to prepare for the future. There are people who, when I contrast with people from Spain, have generated a savings capacity and have financial resources to do things, and it seems that they’re reserving them for a day that perhaps would be a day when you no longer have the energy to do that, you know? And here, I see the contrast to the best extreme, people which I tell them “well, worry a little about the future too”, you know? They live too much on a day to day basis in some things. So yes, that's exactly what you're mentioning, that contrast between people who think too much about the long-term future and what will happen to me at 60, as you said, and people who enjoy the moment a little more.
— And what you mentioned, they call it the pharaoh syndrome. It's a bit like you die and they bury you with all your riches, as if you were going to give them to a future life. My father is one of the best doctors in an ophthalmological area in the world – which makes me super proud –, and I tell him, “Dad, why do you still go to the office, at 65 years old?” Are you waiting to be 80 to buy a sports car and go around acting strange on the street? It's a bit of a culture, I think, from the post-war period.
— I believe that also in our generation, today, we are capable of searching for more things, or opening ourselves more to searching for information, to delve deeply into other topics, to look for new hobbies. Maybe previous generations have that, a life structure of “this is my job.” And it's not that they don't want to buy something, it's that maybe they find it difficult to detach themselves from work, because they say "what do I do now?", so to speak. I think today's generation has a wide range of activities, social networks have ultimately greatly enhanced that lifestyle, and the feeling is that we have a lot of opportunities. I say, if I didn't play poker, I wouldn't be bored either, I would find a lot of other things, I would focus on other topics. And maybe previous generations say: “well, and if I leave this for a bit, what do I invest my time in, what is my daily life like, what do I do? Should I lie down with a mojito until the movie's over, or what? So, I also think that the shots go there.
— I have those questions for the end, on the topic of legacy, but I wanted to start by talking about this personal aspect because I think many people would like to see it. You are a fucking idol to me, you know?
— Well, first thing: thank you for the words. And the second thing to say is that ascensions also go in phases. It's not like saying “I went from NL50 to NL20K”. There is a transition, and it's not that you change that much as a person. I'm telling you, I was the same person when I played NL50, the same when I played NL200, the same when I played NL1K and the same now. So, if you stagger it in phases, many times you think that you see the person directly when he is already up, but he has gone through many phases and during those phases he has been exactly the same, with the same values, with the same ideas and with everything exactly the same. And on the subject of routine, what would it be like in the United Kingdom...
— But before you start with that, do you see yourself as a mass idol when it comes to poker? Do you feel it?
— It's hard for me to recognize it, because there are times when I put it in perspective and I know that those are big words, and anyone who knows me knows that it’s something that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. But yes, at a poker level, which is still a small niche, and at the cash level, which is an even smaller niche, yes. The fact of being in a casino and someone asking you for a photo, with something like that there are times when I don't know where to go. But you can realize the impact. There are people who always have you in their mouths as a reference, or in some forum, or people internationally who have come very far and name you as a Top. So yes, I am fully aware, sometimes it gives me a little respect, but yes, well, we have already come this far. I think I have enjoyed the journey a lot, but I also believe that I have not lost myself along the way, neither as a person, nor by not having sacrificed or mortgaged my life in other aspects to be here. That's something I'm very happy and grateful about, I have been able to enjoy the journey and well, if with these talks we can provide something of value to the people who come from behind, then I’m delighted.
— 100%. Ok, let's get into poker a little, for all the anxious ones who are waiting: “please give me a tip, which will make me finally beat NL25”.
— We are going to say everything false, so people do it the other way around. [laughs]
— What is your daily life like in the United Kingdom, when you are at full poker?
— Generally I get up, take a walk, drink coffee, since I'm a coffee fanatic, and go. I generally start by reviewing some of my hands. And if I have a class, well, I have probably prepared it the day before and I simply need about 15-20 minutes to check everything, prepare a slide, prepare the server with a simulation, etc. I have a class, which usually lasts about an hour and a half, and then I have a session. With classes I always tend to be a little flexible, that's why I like to be with my trusted group. In the end, I play tables where, when the action happens, I need to make a call and say “I'm sorry, but I have to cancel.” That's why it's also important for me to be surrounded by people who understand my situation, my particular context. And maybe they got up and set the alarm, and that day I have to tell them that today I have very good tables...
Then I usually put in a session. I'm not one for very long sessions, the truth is, they usually last a couple of hours. It may depend on the quality of the tables and the focus I have, but generally they are always between 1h30 and 2h30, at most.
— Even if you have a big table?
— Yes. If I have a recreational table that attracts a lot of attention, maybe what I can do is close the rest of the tables, keep the good one and start doing something complementary at the same time. I can respond to a hand on Discord or respond to three WhatsApp messages that were left hanging, while I have a table that doesn't absorb me as much. So, I usually fit in an hour of coaching in the morning, 1h30 or something like that, however long it takes to prepare for the class and the walk that I'm mentioning. Then I put in a session for a couple of hours, have lunch and take a short break after eating.
I'm also not one of those who need 1h30-2h to get going again, lunch doesn't make me so sleepy. Then I take a 20-30 minute break after eating and start again. I put in another session for another couple of hours, I don't really play more than that either. I play about 4 hours a day when I'm there, 5 at most, no more than that. A couple of sessions like that, lasting about two hours and little more.
Then I usually see some of my hands, because I have already accumulated doubtful hands during the day. And then it depends, because now I am living with my partner and in general I have always lived with poker players. And generally those poker players are part of my group: in England I live with Enrique, with Alfonso, with Timoteo and with another Spanish boy who is not dedicated to poker but who is also a friend of ours. So, when I meet there, it’s always the time I dedicate to them, a little more personalized. You see some hands with one, you see some hands with another, we go to one's room. But a bit more relaxed. From a theoretical point of view, it’s not everything exact, but rather a soft hand review.
Before that, always between 6 and 9pm, in recent years I’ve been getting hard into paddle tennis. I always liked it, but I arrived in England and paddle tennis did not exist. I arrived in Mexico and paddle tennis did not exist. Now it has started and Bristol is, in fact, the city in England with the most paddle, I was very lucky in that sense. I am passionate about paddle tennis, I love it and it is a sport that I don’t do to stay in shape, I really do it because I like to play the game or train for paddle tennis. I usually put a training session or a game in there, more usually a match, which is always organized between 6 and 9pm. I put sports time in there and then I usually do a review a bit more calmly. I have dinner, relax after eating and such. I usually fall asleep fairly late, more or less, I'm not one of those who sleeps the most either. Between 2 and 3am, something like that, and I start at 10am. It's 7 hours of sleep and I'll be fine.
Padel is a Spanish game that has become popular in recent years, a symbiosis of tennis, squash and ping-pong—Don't you grind at night?
— No, there is no more after dinner really.
— Wow, that surprises me a lot. There are good tables, I thought it was like that, that the best traffic was at night.
— Yes, but the best traffic will always be at night because it’s American time. That's why I also have that privilege during the months that I am in Mexico. Since I already enjoy that American schedule for the 4-5 months that I’m here, I don't have to make any adjustments. Here I finish playing at 9pm and I'm actually catching 3am European time. So, the months with the best quality in terms of tables are always going to be the months that I am here. There I sacrifice that quality of tables, I miss out on those slightly more “magical” hours. But thank God I have the privilege that I don't need as much of those 2 or 3 hours after dinner. Besides, historically, I honestly believe that they have never suited me very well.
— Very interesting. And how many tables do you play at most?
— Depends on whether it’s 3-handed, 4-handed or 5-handed. From 3-handed I usually play three, it doesn't give me for more. But from what I'm telling you, there are people who have more capacity to play more volume, who think less. I notice it with certain players, with the players who tank the most I can play four, but there are players who act very very quickly and it seems like it's always your turn, you know? It generates much more stress and you have to speed up everything much more.
DavyJones (CWestmoreland) is the only WPN player with seven-figure profits for 2024— It's very interesting. I think people think that the Mega High Stakes people have four tables of NL400, two of NL1K, three of NL5K, one of NL20K...
—— There are people who do it, and I know of Spaniards who do it, but that's what I'm telling you...
— Does being the best imply a lot of pressure? Surely you will be the best one week and the next week maybe it can't be done, you still can't look at it, maybe there is someone who has just been better. Or you, for example, the months in Mexico, until you return to England, are a little less fresh. How do you manage stress, if you have it, or do you live very calmly with your day to day life, with your position and everything?
— In general, I have to admit that I live quite calmly. I tend to stay in the margin, I think it's a virtue of mine. It doesn't affect me that much, to be honest. And well, JM tells me that a lot. He's been working with me for a year, I don't know if you knew.
— Yes, the other day he surprised me, because I didn't see him in that mood at all and he told me that it's crazy, that he's putting more hands than ever.
— Yes, yes. He is crack, for real. And he started with me when he met me personally, because somehow he was more struck by the fact that I was playing levels similar to his and he saw that I did it in a very relaxed way, that I enjoyed it, that I went out, that poker wasn't absorbing me or playing wasn't absorbing me in some way, you understand? So he, in a way, also wanted to join me not only for the theoretical and technical part, but to somehow learn to enjoy playing those stakes more.
It's something that I think I have intrinsically, that I've done it all along the way. I also think that over the years I have been playing more and more on bankroll. Always in a very relaxed position, in which the money is obviously there and always generates small peaks of stress, but I will never be, today, gambling. Not even because the table is great, I will always sell more action or I will manage, but I am going to play the game relaxed, that is clear to me.
It's true that you know that people are also going to look more closely at what you do. But I also think that, when you reach a certain level, you have such a solid foundation and such a great knowledge of poker – not only me, but the people who are up there, for example the 5 or 10 best in the world -, you are clear about why you do what you do and you don't need to justify anything. On the other hand, I am a person who admits that he makes mistakes every day. Everyone can say that they are #1, #2 or #3, and we still make mistakes every day. Every day we screw up in one hand, every day the historic skid. And it continues to happen at the highest level.
Davy Jones's WPN chart from three years ago. In late 2022, Aurora said that Roberto had no equal at short tables, and that at NL5K on PokerStars in the late 2010s, he had the highest win rate.— On the legendary bCp Replays channel, I think it is the best known there is, practically nothing has come out of ACR. I think everything came from GG, from Stars...bCp poker replays .
— Yes, from Stars and older. And in ACR, as I already told you, the last two years have been very intense in 10K and 20K, but especially in 20K. It is the typical stake that is almost always played recreationally and for a year and a half it has been played daily. 3-handed and 4-handed, daily.
— Like a video game, right? For you it was the maximum poker enjoyment you can have in cash games. What a delight.
— Yes, yes. The maximum. For me, that I’m competitive, and I have that love for the game beyond the economic part, I really enjoy that competitive part and finding the nuts and bolts of things, demanding myself to the maximum, improving, counter-attacking in some way, studying the different strategies, seeing the changes that happen during the game. People have a lot of capacity to improve, to reinvent themselves, to get their act together. And the one who was a little rusty two months ago and you knew you were scratching, suddenly you say hey, be careful, he's put a twist on the matter.
— To close the thing about England, I have been left with doubts. Is that Monday to Monday, Monday to Sunday or Monday to Friday?
— Monday to Saturday, with one day off. Whether it's because I go out for a while, because we do some kind of plan or something. Maybe in England there is always that temptation, because you have the setup set up and you are not doing anything that you consider is fulfilling you. You don't have that many plans, at least in my case, and maybe you decide to schedule a session on Saturday. Sometimes I put it in and sometimes I don't, it depends. But about five days a week for sure, and the sixth depends.
— Okay, I had that doubt. And now I want to talk a little more about current topics regarding poker. One of those is the Cash Game Championship of CoinPoker, which has been truly outrageous.
—— Well, CoinPoker I really don't know how long it's been operative. I know that Tony G is one of the shareholders, one of the managers of the room. I don't know who the other one is, although I know there is another one like that, who I also think is recreational poker player. Well, in any case, it’s a room that had been around for a while, in which I had no account or anything and that I had very much in the background.
The idea arose with GG's exclusive table policies. Suddenly, from one day to the next, in GG, who had a monopoly on High Stakes, said that all High Stakes tables were going to be private. You need an invitation and not everyone has access to them. Of course, the traffic dried up and there was a bit of a stir in the High Stakes Discord groups we have, which are for identifying new players, topics on trading and all that. I don't really know the real reasons behind that change, because if you are the room that has an absolute monopoly....
— How odd. When something like this happens, at a business level, I understand that there are prepared people, who are paid a lot of money, thinking. And what was going on, and the image that GG gained as a brand, was fucking outrageous. All, or 70% of the tables, were on GG. I don't understand.
— It doesn't make sense, because it’s the dominant room in all aspects: in tournaments, in cash. You have practically monopolized the traffic and you decide to make such a radical business change. I don't know.
Well, maybe they thought they were going to do well. At the moment it has not been like that. The only thing they have done is enhance and transfer the action to other rooms. Then the news goes out, there is general discontent and those at CoinPoker I suppose that there they saw a niche, a gap or a margin. And through a couple of people, mainly a streamer, everything has moved a little, contact has been made with all the players and all things have been facilitated for the Championship to take place. It’s true that GG made that decision and a few days later that idea began to emerge. They started asking the players a little: who would get involved, who wouldn't, conditions, nuances about how everything could be organized, etc. And people were quite receptive, everyone more or less agreed.
It’s also true that I expected it to be managed within a longer time frame, since it was all relatively sudden. From the moment they contacted us until the Championship started, not even a month passed. Everything was very fast. It was the way to do it, because you don't know what GG's approach is going to be and if they have left that gap you have to move as soon as possible. I assume they thought that way.
In my case, I will not be able to do it nor am I able to live it, nor can I continue living it as I would like because, as I tell you, this has been a championship that has come as a surprise due to GG's situation. I had organized my year in a way in which in December I had planned a vacation in Argentina with my partner, meeting her family, etc. And then also arriving in Mexico, which for me the end of the year and the beginning of the year in Mexico are semi-sacred, where I meet many people again. I have a lot of family here and I always structure my year to reach the end of the year and the beginning of 2025 as free as possible. I organized myself that way and of course, the championship somehow caught me by surprise.
Roberto performed quite convincingly: he played about 14 thousand hands and even managed to go through a decent amount of— Well, but are you happy with having the ability to say “Hey, this event is coming up that is spectacular and I'm still going to take the time with my partner that I promised myself”? It's also a mega win on a personal level, you know?
— Yes, it’s true that it’s something very unique, because it’s not something that you say “well, yes, but there was another one last year.” It’s something unique, in my modality, in the competition dynamics that I like. But in the end, it’s also true that events always continue to happen in poker. Suddenly it seems that records are being broken in all the tournaments: it's the World Series, if it's not the World Poker Tour, if it's not the Triton, if it's not an online series, if not there is an intense month in NL40K. So there always ends up being something. And I think it’s also important to set those limits, plan and be respectful on those breaks that you organize.
— The other day I was having lunch with Andy and we talked a little about Triton and how it was founded by Paul Phua. I think that person is like an Elon Musk: people think they do everything for money. And do you think that he needs money to continue doing all those things? He does it because he loves his job so much and he likes doing it so much, and it's so good at continuity, because he likes it so much, that he doesn't stop doing it. Paul Phua could have money in excess — probably not 100% — and he does it because he loves poker and wants to do something historic in the environment. The same thing happens with any of those things, like Tony G.
— I always say that I think there are times when, in general in business, but also in life, you lack the desire to offer a service that is truly worth what you are paying for it. That is, it seems like the best thing is to charge you. The more I scratch you, the more I rip you off, the better. I would love to offer a service in which I am happy with what they are paying for it, but they are just as happy, or more, with what I am offering them. So, it seems that the rooms, or many of them, are always looking to see if they scratch more, to see if the professional can live less, to see if they can't create an environment in which we are all happy and in which the recreational area is not stepped on so much. I think that is missing, and at the same time that empathy is encouraged, that connection between wanting to offer a good service, in which the one who offers it is happy and that the one who receives it is also happy.
— For me, that depends, mainly, on whether the active CEO of the company is very involved with that activity. Many times, when a company grows, a super professional CEO is appointed to lead all areas, to make the company grow a lot. And in another cases that happens a lot when you go public on the stock market.
We’ll see if with CoinPoker, in an environment outside the .com environment, they manage to establish themselves there. This will make GG have to improve, which will make the other one to have to improve and that's how the market works.
— Yes, that’s true. And to close a bit the topic of applauding everything they have done: the organization of the Championship was honestly impeccable, there are always things to improve, as in everything, but 10. We must also thank the people, elite players who are turning to streaming to selflessly comment on hands, simply to promote the event, you know? Good for that, and we trust that it’s a room that is here to stay.
— So we're not going to see you streaming poker this year?
— No no. [laughs] Would be some big news, huh?
— To continue with this a little bit, I don't know if you want or don't want to talk about Stefan. He is a character, as I told you at the beginning, that seems like another fucking idol to me. He seems to me like the fucking Batman Villain, but in a good way.
What’s your opinion on Stefan? There has been news recently.
— I'm going to give you an opinion in which I have to be a little careful with what I say, because I don't know if you know, but something very serious happened to him. They robbed him at his office. Well, there is an entire article on GipsyTeam. There is an entire article, with the entire sequence of everything, which may easily be a soap opera.
— It was his ex or something like that, right?
— Yes, but then I think that in the end it wasn't her, we don't know very well. I tell you, I skimmed the story, but of course, we are talking about him saying that 3 million dollars were stolen from him.
— My goodness.
— So, everything that happens from that point is subjective, how would you and I be if one of those episodes happened to us?
— And before that?
— Before that, in the time that I have played with him, he is a guy who has a very orthodox style of play, with an incredible ability to flow. I haven't really seen his rise, when I got there he was already there. So I can't comment on how he got there, what his methodology was, whether he always did that or if he simply arrived with a more disciplined and more serious style of play in some facet and then let his hair down. I can't comment on that.
So, what I saw is what I competed with, which I no longer know if it was before or after the event. He had a style of play that took you out of your comfort zone a lot, that forced you to think a lot, that forced you to turn every situation around and that made each hand different. So what happens? I fully believe that people today have much more solid technical knowledge than 4 or 5 years ago, but very much so. There is a huge difference in how far people have grown technically. Still there is always room, there is always a way to find the way around to the spot, there is always room for improvement, but today people are much more competitive. I'm talking mostly on a theoretical level, right? The fundamentals and foundations of the people are much more established. So, I think that style of play that he has perhaps rewarded him at a time, when obviously everything was already on solvers, but maybe there was more. Each one had their own style, the solver was a kind of a reference but it was not an unilateral truth. So, I think that in that more freestyle style he moved well or knew how to take people out of their comfort zone.
But I have seen that in recent years, both at my tables and at the NL500 or NL1K tables, the theoretical bases that people have are much more solid and have many more theoretical foundations. Against that, it’s much easier to adapt and create strategies in parallel, knowing which EVs are scratching you out or how you can counter that line. Today it’s much easier or there are many more tools to work against that style of play. Maybe I'm speaking a little blindly, because I don't know if the event was before or after. Whether it was day 1, day 8 or day 32, you know?
So, I don't know how he got there: in some way. Then he had a stage in which he crushed it with that freestyle style of play and taking people out of their comfort zone without so many established rules, etc. And then there was a time when I think people found the way, because there were many more tools and the fundamentals were much more solid. And then, after that, I think there was the episode, which I no longer know to what extent it affects you, how much it affects you. When you go to a poker table, the emotional freshness and tranquility that you have in your life impacts, and it impacts a lot. You can't ignore that. To this day I don't really know what he's doing, I don't know what his situation is. He played the challenge a few hands, I think he lost a few boxes and was never seen again.
— Well, for him he may do as well as possible, but for me he played the role of Villain very well, honestly. He wasn't a figure you hated either, far from it, because you don't live that way, but he did make a good Villain, he had charisma.
— Yes. Then it’s also true that the cash player is often flatter, more correct, more that he does not want to go out of line, that he does not publish anything, that his social networks are almost non-existent. So, a guy like him, who is almost insulting you at the table, well maybe he went a little out of line and it was fun. The cash player is disciplined, with the ranges, the frequencies, the combos, etc. And he was … vacation, literally. He broke a bit with the usual cash player pattern.
— What is the current state of cash games compared to two years ago?
Also, what do you think of the new generations of players, who come with more fundamental styles?
— Good question. In general, what you have said and what I have mentioned before is true. I would say that in stakes like NL500/1K there are less theoretical margins. That's my feeling. When I played more on those levels, the feeling was that with a good theoretical approach you would almost always be a winner, because people could make bigger theoretical mistakes and that would penalize them in the long term. Today, I think that these errors are very minimized, they are still happening even at the highest daily tables, but perhaps there is a little less margin there.
Perhaps there is a new window between what has been exploitative play. In the sense that, in the end, each one has the theory but also each one has their approach to the theory, that is a fact. That is to say, you have some theoretical foundations, but there are people who always miss an extra bluff here, come up short there, deny too much equity on this street... Another one who comes up short denying equity on this street. another, that doesn’t have the correct frequency in this situation or it goes too far, or it falls short, long or whatever.
So, I think the theoretical foundations are important above all. And now perhaps there is a window to work and delve deeper into finding which foot each person is limping on, always from a theoretical point of view. Many times we say, focused on the exploitative game: “this one check-raises too much, or too little.” But that is something very subjective, because do you know what the correct check-raise frequency is in this situation? Do you know what the correct betting frequency is in this spot? So, I think now people are getting closer to having that real knowledge, to having the sizes and frequencies much more controlled. And perhaps there is a gap with those players who do not have such a solid theory, you can get in around there. People are much more competitive at those levels, but there is still a gap for sure.
Let's say that the error is less significant, but your knowledge is also much higher. Today's NL1K player knows more theory than I did back then. So, he's also going to have a greater profit margin against a guy who is more prepared, you understand?
— Obviously you are not going to give them a private coach, but in this talk, what advice would you give to a person who is really looking to reach those levels? To climb that many levels, what advice would you give someone?
— The first thing you have to have – I know I am very repetitive with this – are some very great theoretical foundations. I think they can make a difference and at those levels it’s something basic. The second thing is also knowing what kind of person you are. I think it’s one of my virtues, that in the end I know myself a lot and I identify in which situations I am comfortable. I am comfortable risking this percentage of my bankroll, but risking this other I am no longer comfortable. You have to know yourself a lot. And it's not about saying “I have to learn to be comfortable like this”, no. It's about finding a balance, putting your foot in it in some way, but not over-exerting yourself and taking one step forward and two steps back. I think I would also say to limit the number of tables when doing this type of shots. And then I think that reg-fest should also be a part of your daily life.
— You've talked a lot about “reg-fest.” At what stake do you consider that, if you are passionate about poker, you can reg-fest? And well, for people who don't know: what does reg-fest mean in the mouth of DavyJones?
— Playing between proven professionals in some way, usually with the idea of starting a table with the potential of a recreational player sitting. Many times you know that no one is actually going to sit, or that the possibility of a recreational player sitting down is relatively low, but you do it because at a competitive level it improves those chances and it’s not the same. You will never see, for example, a reg-fest of 6. It makes no sense, because it’s closing the recreational seat. In fact, if a sixth sits down, someone always leaves. That's where the duels begin about who scratches more and who scratches less, and someone would get up. You will not find a table with 6 regs because it would lose the assumed EV on a recreational player sitting.
— You have spoken about Linus and you have spoken very well. I don't really like these types of questions, but would you like to make a Top 5 cash players, or Top 10 perhaps, without saying too much about the order?
— I could make you a Top 10 without saying the order. But nothing would happen, because it's actually something a bit public. Linus will always be at #1 or #2, always there. In recent years I have been lucky enough to also be a bit in that debate, I don't know if with more or less unanimity. With him there is always more unanimity.
And if I had to tell you today, it depends on several things, but I would mention him. I would mention ja.sam.gale, without a doubt. Kevin Paquet too, has always seemed like one of the best to me. But when we started the 20K battles, in the end they were very high battles where you are playing 20K buy-ins and the swings are high. They can be half a million, a million or a million and a half when you are playing against the five best in the world constantly. I think he stopped playing them at one point, but I think he had the level to keep going and he just saw the downside of variance.
I would make that nuance, because there are a couple of players there that I know are very good and very competitive, but I have not seen them in the 3-handed on a day-to-day basis, exposing themselves to that volatility and that extreme competition in which they put you to the limit in every situation. They are Taisto Janter and Markkos Ladev, who I think generally do quite well, but I have not seen that competitive side in them as in others. I have told you about the Austrians, Linus, FourSixFour enters without a doubt, also Tobias Duthweiler.
And who else would tell you? Well, there is an Italian kid who does it very well today in my opinion, we could put him in that Top. His Stars nickname is EnfantProdige. He does it very well and theoretically has very solid fundamentals, I think he works with Linus.
SeaLlama, who may have spent much less time than you and you probably haven't heard almost anything from him. He's an American who I don't know where he played before, who is doing the commentary and the narration and all that, who does it quite well. I think it's true that he has a little less background, in the sense that I have known him playing 10K and I haven't seen his career as much, but the truth is that today he is one of the most competitive and will surely enter that Top 10.
And then Pr0digy as well, he is the leader in the Championship standings and I think he also does it well. He comes more from heads-up, but he has made a good transition and we could undoubtedly place him there at the Top.
— What challenges continue to motivate you as a poker player?
— I think it's about maintaining yourself, you always get the feeling that there are still things to improve. The more you know, the deeper the concept you're trying to get into is also. For example, watching Championship broadcasts, sometimes I take a break and maybe have a notepad of possible doubts or concepts that I have to review, because I have seen a hand. And maybe I've already had 10 notes in two streamings, in two moments that I've seen. There are always things you can delve into. And in that sense of competing, improving, getting into details at this or getting into details for longer. The fact that there are championships like the one now is always motivating, because it refreshes, it’s extra motivation and a new starting point.
And well, the fact that there continue to be high games with recreational players is always a motivating thing.
I don't plan to retire anytime soon, I continue to enjoy what I do, I continue to manage my time well. I'm learning more and more things in that sense, how to manage my love for poker, so to speak.
— The other day I wrote an end-of-year article, in which I talked about something I read by a contemporary philosopher, Ernesto Castro. He is a pretty good contemporary Spaniard, who said that fun is the greatest motivation that a human being can have to carry out any type of activity, as long as there is no type of element that if you don't do it you will die or your loved ones will die, because you have to bring some food to the table. And the fact of having fun, in the end, makes you put more focus on that one activity, because you don't get bored and you don't have to be with something else on your mind. As you enjoy it and it doesn't take away your focus, you improve, and as you improve you are better, you enjoy it more and it's all like a circle. In the end, everything is based on having fun and enjoying the daily life of a poker player. And it's almost like a video game, right?
— Yes. Sometimes I don't realize it, because I have a perhaps very personal approach to poker in that sense, but yes. People around me have told me this many times, the housemates when they have seen me grinding and so on.
At one point you have to separate it from the economic aspect, you have to like it. Mostly so that your career can be long and has durability in some way.
— What advice would you give to someone who wants to specialize in cash games? For example, you are at NL100 and want to go up to NL400 or NL500, which is like the second level. I see a lot of people very stuck on NL50/100. What do you think is happening there?
— I think the most difficult thing, when you play those stakes, is to understand that the money you invest is insignificant with respect to what a long-term project means. Imagine you play NL100 and have $10,000 in bankroll. Maybe you hire a coach and you feel that you are missing 15 buy-ins, 18 or 22. But you don't know how those buy-ins that you are investing are going to come back. You don't know how much it will boost your winrate, you don't know the security it will give you as a person. I think the most difficult thing, when you are at those levels, is to be generous by investing in training.
Second: cash is a slow job, which does not have the big stage jumps that you can have in tournaments. That is, it’s a very long-term job. It can happen to tournament players, even in Spins, that they sit and their economic context changes between today and tomorrow. That will never happen in cash. It is a much more progressive, slow, day-to-day thing, about doing the job well and also having a lot of patience. Always be alert, you may be missing things. Be curious, say “everything may be variance, but what am I missing?”
— How do you see yourself in 5 years? Do you feel like you can stay on top? I understand that you do. Are you looking for something beyond poker?
— At the poker level, right now I'm not burned out on anything. I see myself staying up there, but it all depends on motivation and how much of a priority poker is going to be in my life. Maybe for some reason I disconnect due to any factor, external or internal to poker, and then you realize that high-level poker is demanding. It’s true that I believe that I have very theoretical foundations deep within me, very intrinsic now, that are not going to be separated. I don't feel like I've lost almost anything, I need a day and I'm almost back on track. It's not quite like that, but you understand what I mean. I have a certain foundation so established that it’s not going to change that much.
— Thank you very much, the truth is that I admire you a lot, professionally and personally. Every time I have interacted with you, you were one of those people that you know are good people and for me that is the most important thing in life, to be a good person.
Roberto, I'll let you finish, I hope you have a very happy year personally and professionally.
— I hope that this conversation is of value to people, that they gain value from it. And that, above all, that they enjoy poker, that they enjoy everyday life, that in the end it's all about that. There are objectives and it’s about meeting those personal and professional goals, but in the end life is the path, it’s what we are doing now and we have to know how to enjoy it, value it and be grateful for it. It's key.
— Fantastic. See you guys in the next conversation, that will be in 20 years, when Roberto has bought a soccer team in Mexico. Happy new year.
— Happy new year, bye Miguel.